Curse

Fate Crusher · Aug 23, 2009, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

same with ranger...you raise either only marksmanship and expertise or beast mastery and expertise or wilderness survival and expertise...only with the difference that you do this with the other classes for playing certain builds, but as said..the Elementalist is GW's universal Allrounder Class, or this should it be anyway, because as said, every element can be used for the same purpose. There's no rule, that says that fire spells can't be defensive or that you can't hex with a certain element and so on...

1st bold: Marksmanship and expertise.... ok.... Beast Mastery and expertise.... ok...

Wilderness Survival and Expertise??? So you're saying you can't weild a bow and spread poison? I'm only allowed to trap? Am i not living up to the full potential of 12 wilderness survival for a longer duration of poison?

2nd bold: Oh there is a rule. It's called PvP, you know this rule? It's the rule that Guild Wars was implemented upon. BALANCE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

Its just just mere realism, that makes the difference between physical classes, that rely alot more on realism, than magical classes, which are pure fantasy and could hadle cause of that everything just with 1 of their attributes...

With enough fantasy you can think you out for all of the elementalist spells of each attribute, which will work either as AoE Spell, hex, Snare, Spike or Defense.

Wow, what game do you think you're playing? With enough fantasy, i can pretend i spent these last 4 years obtaining level 80 and i'll soon have enough money to purchase my epic mount.

With enough fantasy, i can pretend that Anet will never read this and destroy the balance that they try and implement. elementallist skills are a true testament to their original balancing, creating the different elements to specify into certain things.

Personally, i would not like to see a Fire ele in GvG with a bar that can snare, hex, anti melee, spike and give a speed boost on top of raining down their classical AoE. And if i do, he better be playing for me and me only.

MithranArkanere · Aug 24, 2009, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Ok, for the last time, anyone that' don't see the defensive value of fire magic is either blind or daft.

Not many monsters and few humans will stay inside and AoE. Enemies that are not next to you can't attack you in melee. Stay inside and AoE and you'll be safe.

That rule works better in PvE, but it WORKS. The sooner you learn that, the better you'll play as a Heat elementalist in PvE.

ALL 4 elementalist lines have BOTH offensive and defensive characteristics.

Reverend Dr · Aug 24, 2009, 07:32 PM // 19:32

I agree with that, but only because warriors are the best defensive class in the game.

Fate Crusher · Aug 26, 2009, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Ok, for the last time, anyone that' don't see the defensive value of fire magic is either blind or daft.

Not many monsters and few humans will stay inside and AoE. Enemies that are not next to you can't attack you in melee. Stay inside and AoE and you'll be safe.

That rule works better in PvE, but it WORKS. The sooner you learn that, the better you'll play as a Heat elementalist in PvE.

ALL 4 elementalist lines have BOTH offensive and defensive characteristics.

I understand what you mean, but for arguments sake, can't you say that you're only using offensive skills for a defensive measure? yes you can stand in a heat, but a heat is target specific, and not around you. i know bed of coals and lava font do this but they are not exactly amazing AoE spells.

Yes i know that the attributes are quite ballanced. with Earth magic with a few spike skills but you can't deny they are defensive, with their wards, stoneflesh, that hex that does not permit criticals. Water does have spikes with Shatterstone and Vaporblade. but what else? everything else slows.
Fire, burning is good. burning and AoE can be implemented in any way you see, but they still do damage and damage is offensive. Does a ward do damage? does Mind Freeze do spike damage?

Xenex Xclame · Aug 27, 2009, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Yes please, buff invoke the way OP asked, so I can kill the whole opposing team with our team just using 3 skills in 5 seconds of battle.We didn't get enough time to play with old Invoke Spike before it got nerfed

Prettty please?????????

Lishy · Aug 28, 2009, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

That ^

Fire = Nukes
Air = Spikes
Water = Snares/hexes
Earth = Defense

If Everything = Nukes, eles would be bland and have no versatality.

Well that "versatility" has left Elementalists with no place in PvE HM outside of Ether renewal, which is healing+protection+energy storage. Not the elementalist attributes.

Fire is weak. Air is single target. Water has too high recharge, cost, and cast. And Earth has poor synergy in its own attribute and waaay too high recharge (Though ward against melee is good).

draxynnic · Aug 28, 2009, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Well that "versatility" has left Elementalists with no place in PvE HM outside of Ether renewal, which is healing+protection+energy storage. Not the elementalist attributes.

Blinding? Elementalists are probably better for shutting down enemy physicals than Mesmers. Admittedly, people prefer curses necroes because they can have MoP/Barbs as well, but an air or earth elementalist can be more effective at shutdown in a group that has less physicals in its makeup.

Sigon · Aug 30, 2009, 03:53 PM // 15:53

I can't say any line lacks utility even in hard mode , it all comes down to what you need.

Fire is awesome in NM , but in HM it can be support (Long ago before when Kurzick rank was low i valued a SF ele to fuel "They are on fire!" and etc. Each line has it's strenghts and weaknesses.

MithranArkanere · Sep 03, 2009, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate Crusher

[...]

Yes i know that the attributes are quite ballanced. with Earth magic with a few spike skills but you can't deny they are defensive, with their wards, stoneflesh, that hex that does not permit criticals. Water does have spikes with Shatterstone and Vaporblade. but what else? everything else slows.
Fire, burning is good. burning and AoE can be implemented in any way you see, but they still do damage and damage is offensive. Does a ward do damage? does Mind Freeze do spike damage?

That's when skill enters. If you know what you do, you'll move into AoE when in trouble, and time skills so when enemies get to you, the AoE multi-hit starts.

Radiation Field does damage.
Mind Freeze can be used to spike. Enemies that do not run will eat entire multi-hit AoE skills.

eyekwah2 · Sep 04, 2009, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Say for Arc from 0…1…2 foes, Chain the spread goes from 2…3…4 and Invoke from 2…4…6 foes.

Nuking was a horrible choice of words for this as it isn't exactly nuking as it still has limitations on the number of foes that can be hit whereas fire doesn't.

How many foes do you hit on average with a fire build? You're lucky if you hit more than 2 foes. Allowing lightning skills to easily hit more than 2 and up is essentially nuking, because more often than not, you're hitting all your targets, unless of course you think you can round up players like you can mobs in PvE.

Even I'm completely wrong on that, even you have to admit that you're making Air Magic edge closer to Fire Magic in functionality. Air Magic arguably does the best damage in the game vs single targets. That in its own rite should mean it shouldn't be buffed. I can see buffing Comuning or Motivation or some unused attribute like that.. but Air Magic is king of spike. It doesn't *also* have to be area of effect damage. I would argue that it was made like that on purpose merely for the fact that you sacrifice area of effect damage to be ABLE to inflict more damage against a single target. If hitting single targets is not your playing style, don't play Air Magic. You want both damage and area of effect, and you're missing the entire point I think.

It's like as if I wanted the damage from Domination Magic line without the conditions. That is to say, I cast and I deal armor-ignoring damage. Why can't I have that? Because Domination Magic's downfall are the conditions which must first be met before you can do that kind of damage. You want to turn Elementalists into a monotonous profession which has nearly 1000 skills which all do the same thing.. inflict damage. /notsigned

MithranArkanere · Sep 04, 2009, 10:39 AM // 10:39

In Urgoz there wer times I hit more than 12 enemies with heats. Lotsa of pwetty yello numba' alloverthescreen.

Now, seriously, It was actually HARD to see anything but yellow numbers, and I have their size half the way below the default one.

Chieftain Heavyhand · Sep 04, 2009, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyekwah2

How many foes do you hit on average with a fire build? You're lucky if you hit more than 2 foes. Allowing lightning skills to easily hit more than 2 and up is essentially nuking, because more often than not, you're hitting all your targets, unless of course you think you can round up players like you can mobs in PvE.

In PVE depends on how many get herded up. Which is where the balance would come from this compared to Fire magic. There are no limits on Fire magic numbers. Where as this would have a set limit just like it does now. Even in PvP the Elite skill wouldn’t be able to hit more than 7 and like you say that is if they are dumb enough to bunch up, although how these skills work is by jumping from one nearby foe to the next so spacing would be a factor, just like when avoiding fire magic. These Air skills also have longer casting times than the major Fire nuking skills which a competent Ranger or Mesmer could shut down. Like I have said if these changes make PvP unbalanced then keep them in PvE because that is where the change is directed at from my prospective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyekwah2

Even I'm completely wrong on that, even you have to admit that you're making Air Magic edge closer to Fire Magic in functionality. Air Magic arguably does the best damage in the game vs single targets. That in its own rite should mean it shouldn't be buffed. I can see buffing Comuning or Motivation or some unused attribute like that.. but Air Magic is king of spike. It doesn't *also* have to be area of effect damage. I would argue that it was made like that on purpose merely for the fact that you sacrifice area of effect damage to be ABLE to inflict more damage against a single target. If hitting single targets is not your playing style, don't play Air Magic. You want both damage and area of effect, and you're missing the entire point I think.

Actually I am somewhat, just like earth and water are defense and snaring, while Air and Fire are offense and conditions. By taking 3 skills maybe 4, but like I said Orb can stay the way it is, and increasing the number of foes they strike to make them more effective in PvE as well as making an Elite more effective than a common skill, Invoke/Chain, they will be close to how fire nuking skills work but not exactly. These skills that already strike multiple foes, except they have a cap that in PvE frankly sucks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyekwah2

It's like as if I wanted the damage from Domination Magic line without the conditions. That is to say, I cast and I deal armor-ignoring damage. Why can't I have that? Because Domination Magic's downfall are the conditions which must first be met before you can do that kind of damage. You want to turn Elementalists into a monotonous profession which has nearly 1000 skills which all do the same thing.. inflict damage. /notsigned

I have to ask what are you talking about, because you are among a number of people who have jumped on this acting like I’m asking for skills that deal no damage to deal AOE damage and that is not the case. I am taking, aside from Orb, skills that already deal AOE damage and asking that the cap that was placed on them be raised to a more suitable number in PvE. There is crossover in all the lines of the Elementalist Profesion, yet when someone ask that Air be given three skills that hit multiple foes more usefulness in PvE to hit a few more foes you guys are acting like I’m trying to make every line in the profession do exactly the same things as the rest.

I am not. Far from it. I am asking to have 3 skills improved to give some kind of variety to nuking other than Fire magic. This change would not be so powerful that it would replace Fire as a nuking line it would barely be equal to it, in that the number of foes has a cap, a raised one but a cap all the same, where Fire has unlimited numbers of foes that can be hit.

Yes Air is for spike damage, however changing 3 skills to hit a few more foes doesn’t change that in any way. Hitting 3 more foes doesn’t change these Air skills into Fire magic skill copies. What it does do is improve there usefulness in play. You guys try to pigeon hole skill lines for the Elementalist when there are crossovers in each line. I can understand PvP players worrying about balance, but with the new PvP play system on the way some of the things you have pointed out as problems will be eliminated with sealed deck play. Also I am all for keeping these changes in PvE if they affect PvP play. They will in no way over power the Air line in PvE because there is a cap on the number of foes struck, requirements to increase the number of foes hit and conditions that must be met to cast without facing consequences. How exactly is that copying fire magic lines? There are no caps on the number of foes struck, there are no requirements to increase the number of foes struck, and there are no conditions that must be met to cast without facing consequences. The only comparison is they hit multiple foes and if you go by that then guess what they already do, it is just Air is capped at a ridiculously low level for PvE.

Lishy · Sep 04, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Blinding? Elementalists are probably better for shutting down enemy physicals than Mesmers. Admittedly, people prefer curses necroes because they can have MoP/Barbs as well, but an air or earth elementalist can be more effective at shutdown in a group that has less physicals in its makeup.

People use Mesmer for blind? How so? Outside of Fast Casting gimmicks, that is.

Also, can you explain how an ele's earth and air magic is superior to, ohh, let's say, an R/D Blindbot, which is the example I pulled out of my ass? I'd just like some insight on what these "super" supportive ele builds are.

Cuilan · Sep 04, 2009, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

People use Mesmer for blind? How so?

Ineptitude + Epidemic + with optional Gylph of Swiftness or Air of Superiority if wanted

I use that in PvE. Works well in melee heavy areas along with other like skills in Illusion.

HawkofStorms · Sep 04, 2009, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

People use Mesmer for blind? How so? Outside of Fast Casting gimmicks, that is.

Also, can you explain how an ele's earth and air magic is superior to, ohh, let's say, an R/D Blindbot, which is the example I pulled out of my ass? I'd just like some insight on what these "super" supportive ele builds are.

He's saying mesmers run shutdown... not blind.

And blinding surge says hi. All you need in PvE to win as an ele is attunement, aura of restoration, glyph of lesser, blinding surge, hard res, and 3 PvE skills of your choice. You can beat pretty much anything in HM with that.

As somebody who has played an Air Ele since the very first days of presearing when I first got this game, please don't screw up our role. If you want pew pew numbers you can already do that.

draxynnic · Sep 05, 2009, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

He's saying mesmers run shutdown... not blind.

And blinding surge says hi. All you need in PvE to win as an ele is attunement, aura of restoration, glyph of lesser, blinding surge, hard res, and 3 PvE skills of your choice. You can beat pretty much anything in HM with that.

Indeed. Mesmers have skills that are aimed at shutting down physicals (mostly in the Illusion line - I hope I don't have to list them by name) but none are as simple and effective as a Blinding Surge elementalist. Neither, for that matter, is the R/D blindbot or any other source of blind you can name (not that I don't enjoy using EDA with my dervish, and I have an ebon bow for when I want to do that with my Ranger).

Earth isn't as good as blinding, but Eruption does has its uses as part of other forms of Earth-related disruption and defense.

PS Back on topic, on reflection I think the only effect of implementing these changes in high-end PvE would be to make the game harder - it's still armour-respecting damage, while monsters that use these skills on us become more dangerous.